Help. My battery won't charge

[blizzard]

I have had my plane for only a week. After 3 successful charges the Lipo battery will no longer charge. The light on the charger blinks when I plug it in, but the solid red light never lights. My multi meter shows 5.1 volts.

Any ideas? Should this be under warranty?

Thanks.

[ginginho]

Jun 23, 2011 12:06:11 GMT 1 blizzard said:

I have had my plane for only a week. After 3 successful charges the Lipo battery will no longer charge. The light on the charger blinks when I plug it in, but the solid red light never lights. My multi meter shows 5.1 volts.

Any ideas? Should this be under warranty?

Thanks.

5.1V, is that across the output (i.e. all three cells)? If so then the pack is seriously low, or you have a broken connection and hence why the charger won't start. I believe (I don't have the stock lipo charger) it expects to see at least 9 volts (3 per cell) which is it's method of confirming the correct pack cell count, a safety factor.
There are some methods to recover it to an acceptable level assuming that you don't have a physical break, but be aware that this can be risky so read up and familiarise yourself with the process and advice that's available on many websites, if you decide to attempt this.
It is likely that the pack will be chemically damaged by being at this low voltage, so it's a judgment call on your part as to whether it's worth the risk, and what the benefit/outcome will be.
As for warranty, I wouldn't know. I'd expect it to be unlikely but give Horizon a call, that'll be the only way your get a definitive answer.
It's pretty sad that they sell the LP as a starter plane but don't really bother with advising on lipo care. You are not the first to have suffered from this scenario.

[flydiver]

The speed control (ESC) has a voltage low voltage cut-off function (LVC) that is designed to keep the battery from becoming over discharged and retain some minimal charge for the control surfaces to bring the plane in safely. Unfortunately this is set BELOW a proper standard (8.8-8.9v). It should be 9v MINIMUM.
It's an OLD technology and has not been upgraded in years. Yes, there are some crummy parts on the Cub.

In addition if you leave the spent battery in the plane for a few hours, forget it overnight, or stick it in a tree it will continue to discharge until seriously damaged.

The crappy tight battery box may cause breakage of one of the charge wires which may render it unusable unless repaired-not a job for lipo newbie.

Check this way:
Measure 1&2, 2&3, 3&4 wires at the balance tap. That will give each individual cell.
DO NOT TOUCH THE PROBES TOGETHER - SHORT! BAD!!!
You should get all cells above 3.0v.
If not you have a lipo problem-bad cell/over discharged or broken tap wire likely
If all cells are OK, the tap is OK, then you have a charger problem.

BTW-this is NOT just a Cub problem. Major brands GWS and Electrifly (among others) put out an ESC that has terrible LVC settings. They are potentially damaging. Don't use them or don't trust the LVC.


If you want to explore the lipo recover option go here:
"My battery is dead - HELP" info.
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1074181

I suggest you do some lipo education. Newbies typically kill their first half dozen lipos with crashes and ignorance.
Electric RC info, how-tos and such
sites.google.com/site/tjinguytech/charging-how-tos

[nocanda]

Hi guys... I'm just joining this forum though I've had my SC since last year. I bought it in AZ but am now in Nigeria... I flew it several times in Arizona and left it for 5 months before getting a beautiful, calm, sunny Off-duty day here... To cut a long story short my Lipo is no longer charging and from tests I've discovered that one cell is stone dead. I've tried most of the suggestions to wake it up but it's pretty much sitting tight at 0.02-3 volts. Can I get any advice on how to disconnect the dead cell and get the charger to charge the remaining 2 cells please? Also, can the remaining 2s 8.4v 1300ma battery still power the SC LP? I'd be grateful for any suggestions as shipping a new battery here is gonna cost twice the cost of the Lipo itself...

[flydiver]

Possible? Yes.
Easy? Not exactly. It's one of those, 'if you have to ask, don't go there' kind of things.
Does the charger even have a 2S port should you happen to be successful?

There's a fair chance even if you could pull the lipo apart, remove the bad cell, then put it back together properly and safely the remaining 2 cells might be in poor shape so wouldn't work well anyway. Unless there is an obvious reason for a single cell to fail (puncture maybe) there's good reason to believe whatever factor took out the one, is also at work on the others over that long a period of 'neglect'. If you left it charged, especially in heat, for that long it's almost certain it is ruined. Lipos need to be stored at half charge in a cool dry location. I won't leave mine charged more than a day and they are stored at 50% in zip locks, in the fridge (not freezer).
So, it's a bit of hassle and risk for a dubious outcome.
Not probably what you were hoping to hear.

The book you get with the Cub is almost completely worthless in letting you know anything beyond the bare bones essentials of RC flying. Not very helpful in learning all the rest of the electronics you end up learning the hard way.

[nocanda]

Yeah, I kinda expected that answer... Thanks flydiver. so I guess my next option is to make a 10 cell NiMh pack... I can easily get those around here, but I'm dubious about the weight. Can I get any advice on that please? I'm not even sure I want to risk getting another stock Lipo from this experience.. Has anyone used a NiMh pack in a SC LP? Have a good one guys!

[flydiver]

Us old timers started on NiMh. The original was a 7-cell Sub-C, ~1000mA.
It will ....barely...take an 8-pack.
It NEEDS to be a HIGH OUTPUT pack. Consumer grade cells (drugstore stuff) will not work, they don't have enough output.
A 10-cell pack is going to be danged heavy.
It absolutely will not fly as well as a lighter, more powerful lipo.

You need to go to the old 10x8 prop (absolutely necessary or it won't fly) and you need to put this jumper back in or LVC will kick in instantly. This is with the 7 or 8-cell pack.
supercubclub.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ts&action=display&thread=988

Lipo care is not magic but there are some things you have to know. Yeah, yeah, there's all this ''safety" stuff and it's important, but there are other things that are not dangerous, but they are critical to proper use. Unfortunately the average newbie will ruin a half dozen lipos before they figure them out.

DO NOT OVER DISCHARGE
DO NOT USE MORE THAN 80% OF THE CAPACITY - this means there should be about 3.5-3.7v/cell remaining after flying.
DO NOT CRASH - right, how do you stop that! But, a bent/crumpled/dinged/mashed lipo is a damaged lipo and should not be trusted.

DO NOT STORE FULLY CHARGED. The longer you do this and the higher the storage temp the faster they degrade. Minimally they should be reduced to less than 4.0v/cell and ideally to 3.70-3.9v/cell and stored in a cool dry place. (People hate this part and try to find any way out of it. It's your battery, do what you want)

Corollary - Horizon batteries and chargers are lame. Get better ones as soon as possible. Do NOT buy a stock lipo....ever again.
Chances are you can get a better lipo shipped cheaper and faster from a Chinese source like Hobby King, but that's a guess. You'll have to do your shipping research yourself. There are hoards of suggestions for batteries in this section. Anything from a 1000 >2200 will work. You have to do some battery box cutting for the larger ones.

[nocanda]

Thanks so much Flydiver... wish i had checked into this forum BEFORE I bought the SC... I'll look into the chinese angle. Maybe a Turnigy 25C... I should have tossed out the stock hobbyzone to begin with, but it's not too late right now... lol. Thanks once again!

[flydiver]

Don't worry about it, that's how you learn.
You next mistakes are things you don't even know about yet so don't know to ask or watch out for.

[renard80]

Mar 3, 2012 21:02:00 GMT 1 flydiver said:

DO NOT STORE FULLY CHARGED. The longer you do this and the higher the storage temp the faster they degrade. Minimally they should be reduced to less than 4.0v/cell and ideally to 3.70-3.9v/cell and stored in a cool dry place. (People hate this part and try to find any way out of it. It's your battery, do what you want)

Fly, I do understand what you are saying and why. However, recharging cannot be done instantly. So, we get home from work (or whatever), see that the weather conditions are favourable, realise the daylight will be gone very soon, need to go flying - but our batteries are not charged.

So, what's the answer?

In the absence of any workable solution, I see no alternative to storing batteries fully charged, ready for action, and regarding the cost of replacements as the price to pay for being able to fly instantly.

Your advice will be greatly appreciated.

[geoff2474]

Hi Renard

I am like you and find I have a limited window of opportunity to fly most days. Our English weather can turn from gusty to calm and back again within an hour.
My regime is that i keep all but one lipo at storage voltage. This one I keep charged and ready to fly. I know the way lipos behave is not consistent and some guys have numerous problems with them, but my favorite battery just keeps on going and going. It has survived more than a few crashes, it was also in my SC for about 15 hours when I lost it over the Fens. For reference it is a 3s Turnigy 1300mah.
Geoff

Mar 4, 2012 1:10:27 GMT 1 renard80 said:

Mar 3, 2012 21:02:00 GMT 1 flydiver said:

Fly, I do understand what you are saying and why. However, recharging cannot be done instantly. So, we get home from work (or whatever), see that the weather conditions are favourable, realise the daylight will be gone very soon, need to go flying - but our batteries are not charged.

So, what's the answer?

In the absence of any workable solution, I see no alternative to storing batteries fully charged, ready for action, and regarding the cost of replacements as the price to pay for being able to fly instantly.

Your advice will be greatly appreciated.

[flydiver]

You pay one way or the other.
Keep them charged all the time > performance will degrade.

Keep them at storage charge > it's a pain and time consuming to charge them to fly.

Now you know - Your choice.

I know, I know. People squirm, fret, deny, ignore, and seek other answers because they don't like the answer. That's my take on it after carefully studying the problem for years now. I don't like it either but that's the way it seems to be.

But there is kind of a saving grace.
Folks in this forum are 'mostly' dealing with low-mid grade lipos with say 15-25C ratings. That's fine for the Cub and the like. This performance grade is not as adversely impacted by being kept charged, plus it's a low performance power package so....how you going to know if your lipos aren't up to snuff anyway? Most of the time you are probably flying at 1-3C. No big deal if you lose a few C off the top.
(EDF's are most heartily NOT in this category, as are most jets and assuredly just about ALL helicopters. Those kind of toys EAT lipos and spit out puffed batteries).

If you have a high performance power plant that really DOES require 45-60C and you keep those charged all the time you will be coming back to the forums VERY soon asking "what happened to the performance of my lipos?" Or, "Why did my lipos puff on the shelf?"

High performance lipos do not like being fully charged for long. We are talking hours here, not days and weeks. The longer, the worse. The hotter, the worse. A fully charged high performance lipo in a hot trunk or dash in the summer can be ruined in 1/one/uno DAY. You push lipos past 140* and it starts to kill them fast.

But, If you DO have the need and DO have the batteries, you probably also have spent the bucks on a HIGH PERFORMANCE charger that can charge lipos at 5C, and the lipos are designed for it. The parameters that make them high output/high input seems to make them a lot more susceptible to prolonged full voltage. So you can charge them in 10-15" from empty, even faster if they have capacity left, which they always should have (see the 80% rule). But, if you are in that category you probably don't need to read this.

[Note-probably all of you have cell phones and laptops. They use lipos too, though a slightly different formulation. They are VERY LOW output. The low output, different internal design, and different specific chemistry make them less susceptible to this problem. But, if you keep your laptop plugged in all the time, seldom use the battery, the battery is better off at 50% charge, in a ziplock, in your fridge until wanted. Take it out every few months and run a cycle on it. Real prolonged cold storage seems to make them kind of cranky and stiff for a couple cycles.]

Working Hint - Keep them at ~ 3.9something volts/cell (below 4.0v/cell). Better than fully charged but able to charge pretty quickly.
You can mostly ignore the 1C charging rule. 2C is fine and safe for about any lipo. 3C is probably fine and safe but keep and eye and finger on it for heating the first few times you try it. If you don't fully understand what I mean-DON'T GO THERE! I will not be responsive for you burning your house down.

You may need a better charger when you start pushing higher amps.
You can yank them off the charge when they hit ~97%. That last little bit of balancing takes forever and provides little extra power or longevity. In fact, it's better for the battery in the long run. If the balance is so out of whack you are reluctant to do that then that battery is getting kind of old. Yup, I got lipos like that too. I have some I use for combat that I beat the snot out of, but they are 2S 1000mA and not a huge loss. Still, they are going on 75+ flights and almost 2 years old.

Hows that for a bunch of hints?

[renard80]

Wow, you always go to great trouble in giving us the benefit of your experience, Fly, but here you have surpassed yourself!

Very many thanks for clarifying the position. Your advice is greatly appreciated.

[renard80]

Mar 4, 2012 1:43:19 GMT 1 geoff2474 said:

. . . my favorite battery just keeps on going and going. It has survived more than a few crashes, it was also in my SC for about 15 hours when I lost it over the Fens. For reference it is a 3s Turnigy 1300mah.

Thanks for that, Geoff. Duly noted.

I have been using Loong-Max Tipple 20C 1300mAH for about a year now and very satisfied with them. But I may well try one of those Turnigys.

(Some very good days here last week, light winds, ideal flying. But now low pressure has returned, bringing rain and high winds, with more forecast all week. Good old UK weather!)

[flydiver]

There are people out there that take meticulous care of their lipos. They understand the chemistry, keep diligently on top of the changes in both lipos and chargers, and 'play by the rules' of discharge rate, appropriate size, discharge capacity, and proper storage. If the lipo is decent to start with these folks can get 200-300+ cycles over years with little degradation in performance. I read what those people have to say and pay attention.

That said, meticulous care will not save a crap lipo. These can be found in any line at any time. The raw cells come from only a few manufacturers and are assembled by different retailers. Sometimes the difference is how well the pack assembler is about cell selection. There are certainly instances of great cells with lousy assembly, and I've seen it the other way around.
It's not unusual in this day of instant broadcast communication for a single line that gets a very good product reputation in the community to be completely overwhelmed by orders, lose control of production, and suddenly a good product goes bad. Then everyone rushes away to the next 'best product' and ruins that one.

Of course, really bad care can ruin any lipo in very short order. With the 'cost of entry', both in dollars and in knowledge so low for RC now people without a clue are flying lipos and learning all their lessons the hard way. They would ruin anything.

With some people having outstanding use habits, and more with middling use habits, and a lot with miserable use habits it makes it VERY hard to determine who knows what they are talking about when a lipo is praised or d**ned. How do you really separate knowledge based on study and experience from enthusiastic but limited opinions based on a few good or bad experiences using the internet as a source? Challenging to say the least.

Note - the Loong Max batteries were one of the brands that were made with very good cells and lousy construction, at least the ones we got in the states a couple years ago. They broke balance taps off if you looked at them wrong. If you didn't catch that problem you could ruin the battery in a single flight. Then, of course, you considered them to be garbage.
They quit selling to Hobby King and AFAIK there is no outlet in the US. Looks like GiantCod sells them so they are one of you easier lipos to get. Hope they are still good and fixed the problem.

2nd note - HK has been promoting their 'nano' line for awhile now. Great marketing tactic-not sure I believe any of it myself. The reviews are all over the map. It's almost impossible to figure out if they are really better or not. The marketing worked and people that probably shouldn't even be allowed to play with lipos are using and abusing them. Some folks that seem to know what they are talking about seem to think the Turnigys are actually better cells for less money. But it seems also to be somewhat size specific lending some credence that the raw cells may be coming from different places and are really not the same product. That pot is a real mess. I can't sort it out at all.

Making sense of all this is a tough call on a moving target, that's for sure. I wish you all luck. For myself I try to take care of my lipos and haven't bought any in a couple years but I'm going to have to pretty soon with summer coming and some of them getting kinda lame.