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Post by rickswa on Jul 1, 2012 22:55:51 GMT 1
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Post by flydiver on Jul 1, 2012 23:23:11 GMT 1
The pack is fine. The stock charger will work but on that battery will take probably 3+ hours to charge. I think it's on a timer for 1000mA so you may have to cycle it (unplug > re-plug) and then it may overcharge. The charger you are looking at will also work....much better. But for $22 you might consider popping to $30 and getting something that could last you for years and do everything including lipos. It's not long before you'll be going down that route. www.hobbypartz.com/60p-dyc-1004.htmlReview: www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50878Downside - you need a 12-18v 5+amp power supply and learn how to use the charger. |
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Post by rickswa on Jul 2, 2012 1:56:52 GMT 1
Thanks a lot for the reply. I like the idea of getting one like you mentioned that will be good in the future too. Thank you!
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Post by flydiver on Jul 2, 2012 2:58:10 GMT 1
There are a number of those 4-button, 50W type of chargers out there. They all work pretty much the same but with varying levels of quality in components and origin of manufacturer, and price of course. The list is longer than this, probably 2-4x as long.
Turnigy Accucel-6
Loong Max E6
iMax B6
GT power A-6
iCharger iC6
Bantam BC6
Sky Charger B6
Battman B6
Venom Pro Charger
Dynam Supermate DC6
Something to note - NiXX chemistry stays cool while charging and begins to warm up when full. If you find the batteries getting quite warm to hot, then it is overcharging and should be stopped immediately.
This characteristic is NOT true of lipo charging. They are not even similar and should not be approached in the same way at all as NiXX.
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Post by rickswa on Jul 10, 2012 11:35:10 GMT 1
Thanks again for all the info. I was going to get the dynam supermate you mentioned but wanted the AC version and hobbypartz was out of stock. I ended up going with the Thunder AC6. Just figured better to go with the "right" one now than end up owning two chargers down the road. Now I just have to figure out how to charge the 8.4v 1500mah nimh pack I got from cheapbatterypacks.com. Should I make the initial charge slower than future ones? I think I've read to do a slow charge for the first time. Thanks again for all your help. It is really appreciated.
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Post by flydiver on Jul 10, 2012 20:13:59 GMT 1
People think NiXX charging is simple.....NOT. It's way more complicated then lipo. You just don't pay so dearly for mistakes. One of the major reasons people become disappointed in using NiXX is they don't know what they are doing. They use them improperly, and charge them improperly so they end up with poor results. The are unfortunately a lot of junk NiMh on the consumer market now also. The whole BS about NiCaD "memory effect" and need for total discharge is still alive and passed around all the time. Here are some excellent places to learn: Technical Tips for NiCd and NiMH Battery Pack Users www.camlight.com/techinfo/techtips.htmlLearn About Batteries batteryuniversity.com/learn/I give you 2 months before you dump them and go lipo. |
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Post by rickswa on Jul 11, 2012 1:05:58 GMT 1
Thanks fly. I like the lipo comment at the end. LOL. I just want to do my learning BEFORE I use this new charger and totally fry my new pack...or worse. I know about the battery box mod to do for lipos and the jumper to remove but for now I just want to try to stick to the stock batteries and the new one I bought. I'll get back to you in two months if I still haven't burned up anything by then......  I've read that article about the memory effect and discussions on the BS part of it. I just wanted to get away from the stock charger but still a little timid about the whole lipo thing yet. I figured if I already have two stock packs (1000mah) and 1 new one (1500mah), then I would just stick with that for now. We'll have to see how it goes. |
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Post by flydiver on Jul 11, 2012 3:23:28 GMT 1
Did you get the elite 1500? Those are pretty good batteries but the one I got seems to have paid for the increased performance in a short life. One of the problems of higher output NiMh is they get 'flogged' harder and this takes a toll. I suspect you won't have a lot of luck reviving the old stock batteries.
Good for you for taking some time to learn the ropes of battery and charger technology. In the long run it'll likely save you some $$ in batteries you won't have to buy because you messed them up.
I just ordered a couple small 2S lipos for my combat plane. These are my first purchases in over 2 years-I tend to take care of my batteries. For combat I throw a lot of my cautions to the wind in the heat of the battle so they get used pretty hard, not to mention the frequent crashes. They are definitely showing 2 seasons of use. But, to be fair, I'm a cheapskate and when I started lipos were pretty expensive. They have come WAY down in price and are now significantly more cost effective than NiMh.
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Post by rickswa on Jul 11, 2012 12:09:17 GMT 1
Yep, that is the one I bought. My main thing with lipo is just that I want to learn more first so I don't end up posting a photo of a burned garage like the one thread has on here. Or the almost melted cub from the other post. I have the UM 1S lipos for my champ that Im going to try to charge on the AC6 with the hyperion adapter. The stock cub batts work "ok" right now but just not a lot of flight time out of them. I think what I'm going to do is when one of them ends up going (which I'm guessing wont be too long), rather than dumping more money into the NiMh world, I'll just suck it up and change over to lipo. Any good (I know there are probably a ton in the battery threads) suggestions on lipo batteries for the cub? Thanks again for all your help. A lot of info to try to get down right now. I just want to get all the info I can before I start with this charger to make sure I have the best chance for success, but I still know there will be some learning after that. Can I ask you one last question? When you charge your lipos, do you use a lipo-safe bag or not? That's one thing that seems to differ among some of the threads I've been reading.
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Post by rickswa on Jul 11, 2012 12:53:28 GMT 1
Hey fly,
was reading your post on the battery section about NiMh and charging. Based on what you put, this is what I will do to the stock batteries I have (8.4V 1000mah 7 cell).
So for a 1000mA battery:
D/C ~ 200mA (0.2A) to 1v/cell
Charge at 100mA (0.1A) for 15 hours.
and just so I get the obvious down, for the new 1500mah pack, I would NOT do the discharge since it's a new pack and just charge at 150mA (.15A) for 15 hours? Then after that I could charge it at 1 or 1.5A? any idea what I would set the cutoff to after the forming charge?
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Post by flydiver on Jul 11, 2012 16:22:47 GMT 1
Your numbers are fine.
For NiMh you can't set a capacity cut-off reasonably. There is that capability in the charger but it's mostly an emergency 'screw up' setting. I don't use it. It's a pain to set up and if you change battery sizes a lot (I do) it's a nuisance.
For the C/10 forming charge you mention you just use time and/or the cell temperature rising to indicated getting full. Excess charge at that low rate is not a big problem.
NiXX charging is essentially controlled 'over filling'. At a very slow rate excess charge is turned to warmth. At higher rates excess charge becomes excessive heating and heat is NiXX destructive. Actually too much heat is bad for ANY kind of cell. Getting lipos over 140*F starts to ruin them fast (see under EDF and helicopter battery abuse ;D).
When you go to charge the packs I'd probably use 1A unless you were in a hurry. The normal Delta-V termination of the charger should stop it. Watch it the first few times to make sure it works. You will see the voltage rise ABOVE the final charge setting and hold there. Once in awhile it'll suddenly drop to nothing. This is normal and it's the charger trying to figure out the termination. You can adjust the termination setting in the core setting area if you need to but go with default to start. Improper setting can lead to under or over charging. Differences in pack qualities (age, internal resistance, use pattern) may necessitate different Delta-V settings. Usually you can find one that works well for you.
To make it clear, you cannot set final capacity or charge voltage on NiXX. The charger needs to take care of that. The only thing [Auto] setting does is allows the charger to lower the charge rate if it thinks it's appropriate by whatever sampling mechanism it uses. On [Manual] it charges at whatever rate you set it.
Delta-V termination doesn't work reliably (if at all) when doing forming charging (C/10). The rate is too slow for it to function. You need to be at least C/3 > C/5 for Delta-V to work. Best rate to charge NiXX seems to be C/5 > C: which would be 1A and 1.5A for your batteries.
Note-some of those chargers have a port for a temp probe. For NiXX charging that would be a valuable accessory, not for lipo.
My AC-6 has the port and I made a probe but it doesn't work. I don't know if it's a charger problem or I didn't make the probe right but the process seemed pretty straightforward.
You can still use the old charger. It seems to be a peak (Delta-V) charger and will effectively be about a C/3 for the larger battery and C/5 for the smaller ones.
You may have read NiXX loses ~ 10% of it's charge in the first 24 hours, then slows down. If you want maximum punch out of the batteries charge them right before flying. I often would top them off on the way to the field.
Re-charging lipos:
I don't use a sack. I do charge on a steel shelf with large tiles on it and a fire alarm and extinguisher only a couple feet away. This is done in the basement. Not foolproof but about 90% fireproof. I'd have a lot of stink and smoke if it went bad. Most (but not all) charging fires are operator error-usually the wrong setting.
Most non-charging fires are crash damage or shorting the leads. You would be amazed how often people short those leads cutting both leads off at the same time with diagonal cutters to replace them on new batteries being the classic OPPS!
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Post by rickswa on Jul 13, 2012 16:16:51 GMT 1
wow. thanks for all the great info. I'm going to give it a try with the forming charge now that I read all the info you gave and watched the links to the vids you posted in the battery thread. I've been using the stock batteries while I was getting this process understood and they seem to be fading F....A....S....T. I think my brother had the plane for about a year and a half or two with not much use but man they don't keep that plane in the air for very long and it seems have less power than when I got it just a short time ago.
That's the thing that scares me with the lipos. FIRE. or having it blow up in my hand but I do have lipos for my hobbyzone champ so I'll ease into it that way but I feel your prediction about me going to lipos for the cub coming true in the near future.
I am surprised you said so many people cut both leads together! seems you'd want to be VERY careful not just for the fire reason but for what they cost too! guess sometimes people value time over money or even safety.
thanks again for all the great info. you have been a SERIOUS help.
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Post by flydiver on Jul 13, 2012 16:38:17 GMT 1
Cutting both leads is a 'dope slap' move. As soon as you do it you instantly know it was stupid.
The 2nd thing you do is post, "Have I ruined my new lipo? ARRGGGHHH!"
Lipos are about as dangerous as gasoline. We handle that all the time but are so accustomed to it we mostly don't think about it. Treat them properly, they are fine. But, that's the key, proper treatment. I'd warrant a lot of the people using them have no clue to barely a clue.
Since balancing chargers have become the standard lipo fires from charging have gone way down.
Fires from crashes....remained the same.
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I've read that article about the memory effect and discussions on the BS part of it. I just wanted to get away from the stock charger but still a little timid about the whole lipo thing yet. I figured if I already have two stock packs (1000mah) and 1 new one (1500mah), then I would just stick with that for now. We'll have to see how it goes.